Episode 86: Selling is Serving, with Nicole Cramer
Nicole Cramer
A New Year brings talk of resolutions, goal setting, and fresh starts… could the key to achieving what you want in 2023, whether personally or professionally, be your mindset? In this episode, we talk with Nicole Cramer about her experiences as a high school educator and a corporate sales professional and how they both helped to shape her, her mindset, and the services she provides to her clients as a successful sales coach.
Nicole Cramer is the CEO of Healthy Steps with Nicole, a company which provides sales coaching for female health and wellness entrepreneurs. To learn more, visit https://www.healthystepswithnicole.com/
Notable Quotes:
“It's not transactional, it's relational”
“At the end of the day, people are going to buy from you because they like you. And it really was the best advice that I ever could receive.”
“The Psychology of what is it that you're actually doing – selling is serving”
“I would say more than anything an entrepreneurship mindset is probably the number one thing that you want to be working on.”
“But a lot of things really are about the relationship more than anything. And so I think that's just the most important piece to get behind is you're really building relationships with people and helping them solve their problems.”
“That's one of my number one cornerstones that I tell people – stay curious, keep asking questions.”
“So, when we use these specific phrases, I call the magic phrases, that's really what we're doing. We're speaking to the subconscious part of the brain, allowing people to make decisions more efficiently.”
“So in that moment, I also realized, am I willing to put a price tag on my dreams? Because if there's anything I know, and anything that I've learned, money is a renewable resource, time isn't.”
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TRANSCRIPT
Danielle McCombs 00:03
Welcome back to the opposite of small talk, Kate, we are so unbelievably excited to have you back.
Kate Schatz 00:09
Thank you very much for having me.
Danielle McCombs 00:11
So I just want to start by saying, You're being a guest on our podcast two years ago, I think it was June 2020, was a turning point for us. And it was a turning point in the world. It was in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. And Christie and I had made the decision that we had a platform and we needed to use our voices in a way to just open this conversation up, and you were so generous with your time, and really gave us a lot to think about and a new way to show up in the world. And from there, we decided that talking about racial justice was going to be something that we continued to do, and make it something that we wanted to show up differently in the world. So I want to just thank you, number one, like, I tell people that that was a turning point on this podcast for me individually for Christie individually and for the podcast as a whole. So thank you for that. And thank you for coming back.
Kate Schatz 01:09
Thank you, thank you for sharing that. And I'm, that means so much to me to hear. That's really, really great. I'm so glad.
Danielle McCombs 01:18
So what we want to talk about today, and I think it's in where we are in the world, the climate of the world, but you are an activist. And we want to know, what is your definition of being an activist?
Kate Schatz 01:32
Oh, you know, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's a changing definition, I you know, and I think language evolves, and definitions should evolve. And I think I've always defined activism for myself as giving a shit and doing something about it. You know, and with that, as a framing, I think, to me, the most important thing about defining activism is that I think everyone should define it for themselves, because I think it looks incredibly different for everyone. And when we offer one specific definition of it, it's not going to be accessible for everybody, it's not going to feel realistic for everybody. And I think we're at a point in this world where I just feel like I just need, I just need as many people as possible to just do something. So if we create an ad definition that says, Well, an activist is someone who does this, this, this and this, then we then we lose a lot of people. So I'm my working definition right now is you give a shit about something and you do something about it. I do. Like my one thing I add to it is that I do think that effective and impactful activism involves some kind of risk. And we can think about risk in all kinds of ways, it can be a very personal risk, it can be a professional risk. I think for a lot of people, it's a social risk, you know, what you risk for speaking up in your friend group or in your community, or what you risk in your neighborhood for putting up a lawn sign for a candidate, you know? So, again, I don't just mean like physical danger of risk, although that is a reality in this country right now, for sure. But some kind of risk, you're willing to put something on the line, to to do something about something that you care about.
Kristy Olinger 03:27
I mean, I love the idea of not pigeon holing what an activist, an activist is so that we can make it accessible to all. And I'm really interested in this statement around effective and impactful act, activism requires risk. Because I think that, for me, it requires you to declare a position. Yes. And you're right, that it, it does feel like a social risk when these issues are so polarizing. But I guess, I guess kind of what I'm trying to think about, like, what are the way if part of the objective is to get more people to do something? What, you know, what are some of the entry points that maybe feel less risky for people but are or are impactful? Like, what are the ways to get started?
Kate Schatz 04:19
Why? Well, I think I mean, this is, it's so funny to talk about, I think a lot of it just seems like really cliche, but you know, I do think it starts at home, you know, I think it's some of the most and this is why like, by by offering a kind of broad definition. The last thing that I want to do is like dilute the impact of what activism is right? Like, I'm not trying to say that like, you know, anybody who has a thought is an activist Right? Like the crucial thing is that you are acting that you're doing something but like, I think like parenting is a profound can be a profound kind of activism, right? Like, literally the books that you choose to read with And to your children, the TV shows that you watch the conversations that you have with your kids. That can be some of the most impactful activism, I think you could never even show up to an A protest or do anything external, in your community. But if you are having real conversations with your kids, if you're doing transformative, powerful work within your household, I think that conduct some of the most profound activism that we can do if you're doing it in your workplace, right, like starting I think really starting where you are. And and again, I'm also really careful I live I'll be very clear, one of my many privileges is that I live in the San Francisco Bay area, I live in a place where it's very safe for me to be who I am to walk around with my wife in public to put lawn signs on my lawn, supporting candidates, I'm not facing intimidation, I'm not facing social ostracism, being hard being ostracized, right, I can do those things. And I know that the reality for a lot of people in this country is that they cannot. So that's a big part of why I'm trying to be broad with this definition. And so again, I think, you know, a bit can also just start with educating yourself, right? Like, maybe for a lot of people, there's can be a barrier, you're like, Well, I, I know that racism is a problem and like, but like, I don't really understand, right? So how am I going to be an activist if I don't actually understand what I'm activating, being an activist about, so like, taking time for yourself to be reading to be watching documentaries to be learning, I think this is that's a, that's a base of, of effective activism as well. So sometimes that kind of work. It's can be very hard, because it's, it's less visible. So I do know that there are a lot of folks who are like, I want to be an activist, and I want everybody to see that I'm doing stuff. But not all of it needs to be visible. And, and not all of it is going to be something that everybody else sees that you post on Instagram, and so everybody knows you're doing it. Yeah.
Kristy Olinger 07:09
The last time we spoke, you gave us such a list, such a robust list of movies, books, things, and it's been really helpful to go through them, but it is a lot of work. Well,
Danielle McCombs 07:23
so I just want to go back to where you are, depends on like, what a risk is or what you should be doing. And so, Kate, I live in the Bay area as well. So we live in this liberal bubble, if you would like right, and it feels, the things that I believe that you believe, like is very welcomed. And in other places, it's not. And so I want to touch on what is going on in our country right now, as far as like Roe versus Wade, and the overturning of that, and how, I don't know, we're in California, and we've been told by our government, like you're safe here. And also people can come here if they need, you know, if you need to get an abortion, you can come here and we will pay for it. So we're living in this bubble of like, there is a part of that safety. That does feel nice being here. But for people who are in other places, what are ways that they like to know what to do in this situation or to get the information.
Kate Schatz 08:23
So for one, I'd say that, I think one of the one of the worst things that we can do right now and going forward is to rely too much on that sense of safety. Even in spaces like this, to assume that it won't happen here to assume that it's not going to happen here is really dangerous. And I think that's actually a big part of what gets us where we are right now. You know, it's at the same time, it's, it's incredibly difficult to live in a constant state of vigilance and paranoia. And assuming that the worst is going to happen, right, we do need to get through the day and functions. So that is part of the privilege that we have living in this country is that we have these systems and these these governmental structures that we assume have our best interests in mind. And that, to take it back to all of this is I think one of the biggest perils of white supremacy and the way that it also harms white people as well, right, that it gives us a false sense of stability and and to safety that we're okay. Right. And it's not fair. And it's unjust. And it's also just not true. We're just we're just not so all that is to say for now. There are places that and for the likely foreseeable future. states like California and other blue states will likely remain places where abortion is going to be accessible. And I think that this is, you know, we're just we're recording this a few days before this midterm Election. Who knows what's gonna happen? I don't have very high hopes. And I think what I want people to be doing is that we need to think outside of this, these election cycles and to be going to what you said, which is what do we do? Right. And I think that, again, depending on what your thing is, if your concern is an abortion access, there are so many organizations, and people out there working on getting around these laws. And this is, frankly, what marginalized communities have always done in this country. This is how people of color this is how immigrant communities, this is how people have survived, either through underground systems, right through working outside of these systems that that aren't there to keep us safe, right. So already across the country, I mean, even big organizations like Planned Parenthood are creating these mobile clinics, right, that basically go right up to the border, like they're like, all on the border of the state, and they are welcoming people in, right. So there's going to be so much that we, if that is where you want to put your activism and energy, like, there's going to be so much to learn about that and figure out ways to financially support, you know, to spread the word. And I also think that we are when it comes to reproductive health care and abortion, we are really shifting toward self managed abortion care, medical abortion, and and relying on on that we're, I think, gonna see a lot of interesting and intense. I mean, just the legal landscape of what's going to be happening with it is going to be so complicated. And I think even just following that, staying aware, is going to be a big part of of, of the work for those of us who live in states where it remains legal.
Kristy Olinger 11:42
I'm so glad that you went here, because, you know, this is reproductive rights is something that has been on my mind every day since June 24. It comes into my head every single day. But I feel very paralyzed by the idea of trying to figure out how my local state government works. Like, there's some things that have been proposed, and I'm trying to read, you know, I'm on the notification list, and I'm trying to read it, and it's so complex and daunting. So what you just said around working instead on abortion access, and, you know, getting to the people that can work within what's possible versus tackling the government and advocating on that side, like, is it both? I don't know, I was assuming I was going to need to go, you know, go the politics route. But it just seems way too complex and daunting?
Kate Schatz 12:40
Well, it is. And here's what I would say. And this is where I think one of the key components of understanding how to be an impactful activist in what is is back to being such a personal thing depends on your skill sets. And it depends on what you're good at, and what you're interested in, you know, like I was having, I was doing a podcast a couple days ago with a woman who is a lawyer, and she right now, she is doing a lot of like election monitoring, and like legal stuff around elections, because she's, she's a lawyer, like that's what she does, right? There are a lot of people out there using their their loss skills around all of the legal, you know, the legal landscape of abortion, that is not my skill set. I'm not a lawyer, right? That might not be your so and it's just not the only route, right. And this is like, I'm gonna say this, and this is gonna sound very doomsday to a lot of people, but I actually think that we need to, we need to right now operate. We need to assume that there's going to be a federal abortion ban. We need to do everything we can to try to make that not happen. But we have this it's I'm going to, I don't know if this this analogy will work for people, but I coach Little League. And I tell my players who are nine years old. You know, they're always like, what's the score? What's the score? Are we winning, I say it doesn't matter. I want you to play like you're losing. And that's like, kind of a gnarly thing to tell a bunch of nine year olds, but like, when their mindset if they think they're behind, they're gonna play harder, right? And they know that they're actually winning by 15 points, like they were last night 15 runs, they're gonna goof up. Like, we have got to assume that a federal abortion ban is coming. And we have to be thinking of again, what do we do to stop that? Well, if you're not in politics, and if you're not in law, you are not actually going to do much from your home. But if you if we focus and reframe it on, how are we going to get women access to safe abortion care? You know, and there's also examples from history of how women have done that, right. I love that the movie Jane is in theaters right now. I haven't seen it yet. The new movie with Elizabeth Banks like that's about the Jain collective and the women in Chicago who were managing underground abortion care before Roe v. Wade. You know, we now know that was many many years ago that was decades ago. What abortion care looks like now, outside of the law is very different, it is much safer, right? We're not going necessarily for everyone into back alleys. Right? There are safe ways to get women abortions. We also know to be clear, that doesn't mean that this is not dangerous. We know statistically, overwhelmingly, this impacts black and brown women, poor women, immigrant women, dramatically we know the detriment that that's going to have on on women's health and women's lives. So this is some life or death shit. And again, when it comes to like, where we focus our energies and attention, I think that's like such a critical part of this. And so if like thinking about it is like, what organizations can I support that are being innovative, and are committed to like, doesn't matter what the last thing right now we're gonna figure out how to get women this care.
Danielle McCombs 15:59
So it feels like a lot of what you're talking about too, is just take a step. Like we're not going to, we're not going to figure it all out, right, one person isn't going to come in and be like, figured it out, guess what, everything's okay. But if everyone can do something, and instead of being paralyzed by like, I don't know how to fix this problem, show up with what you do know how to do, and do that.
Kate Schatz 16:23
Yeah. And I'm going to do something that I try not to do, which is to recommend a book I haven't read yet. I usually like to read the books first. But here's another angle to this, right, which is just to take it back to like, what it can look like to just take steps in your home in your community, like, in small ways, having these conversations, right, how do we have a conversation? So there's a book that just came out? Gabrielle Blair's book Jackley responsibly, I don't know if you've seen this, right. She's designed mom on Twitter and Instagram, she has a huge following. She's a really interesting writer and person. She's a mother of six, she's I believe she's a Mormon. She's like us, or ex Mormon, super progressive and interesting. And she's written a book called ejaculate responsibly, that's really around reframing the conversation around abortion, to talk about the role of men and the responsibility of men in this conversation, and that is, I think, a huge point, and especially for straight women, especially for women and hetero marriages and relationships. If you are sitting there raging about abortion, and your male, your cisgender, male partner is not that is a huge part of this problem, right? That people still see this as something that just impacts women, right? We know that people of all genders can get abortions. And we also know that no one is getting pregnant without dudes, you know, at least on purpose. Or, you know, so that is a that is a huge part of the conversation. So again, haven't read the book, but intend to, but I appreciate that what she's doing is also offering us this other way of having the conversation about this.
Danielle McCombs 18:05
Yeah, I feel like as three women having this conversation, like this should be a conversation where men are involved just as much. Yeah, it's like, if not more, guess what, who has who's the one signing all these laws, like, they need to be fighting against this, like when you it is just I mean, I don't have to get on the soapbox. We all know what we're talking about here. But like it's infuriating when people are making decisions for other people's bodies that they don't know anything about.
Kate Schatz 18:33
And there are plenty of women, there are plenty of women in politics loves to But absolutely, they're kind of these decisions about about our bodies are consistently being made by men. And the people that are loudest about it, that are fighting the fight again, tend to be women. And I'm just not seeing a lot of men who are having sex with women speaking up about this, I see women sharing their abortion stories, I do not see a lot of men saying hey, I would have 234 More kids that I know of, if it weren't for safe and legal abortion. So
Kristy Olinger 19:05
Right. So to share a quick story about a conversation in my life with a man that I am very close with. And we were talking about Women's Equality Day. And I made a comment, like, I'm not celebrating Women's Equality Day this year, like I just I we're not equal, we have less equality than we did, you know, before June. And he said, Well, what do you mean? And I'm like, Well, what do you mean? What do I mean? Like he literally had no idea of the downstream impact of overturning Roe v. Wade and I had to actually like, talk about my abort, I had to put it in real torque terms and talk about my abortion story, and how like I had to have a medical abortion due to a miscarriage and how access to that could have been unduly delayed if the laws in my state weren't what they were and it just hopefully it was eye opening to him but It was really eye opening to me to be like, wow, like people really they just they don't know. Yeah,
Kate Schatz 20:06
yeah, they don't know. And and the thing is, in particular. And there's a lot of parallels here and actually, I think really parallels conversations around weight race amongst white people, right? There is there are a lot of people who are avoiding these conversations, like actively not wanting to have them. But there's also a lot of people who just literally don't know how to have the conversation because they've never been brought in. It's not been. So I think for men, women's bodies, abortion, pregnancy, this stuff is kept so secret and isolated, it's so covered in shame, it is not considered an important part of our health care, right? A lot of men just don't know how to have the conversation. They're not invited into the conversation. They don't feel like it matters to them, they don't get it. They don't know they couldn't find a clitoris on a diagram, let alone an actual human. Right. Like they don't, they just don't know that this impacts them, right. In the same way. I think that for a lot of white people, they have just taught to not even ever think about race, they don't know how to have the conversation. It just doesn't even occur to people. Right. So again, to go back to like, how can we be impactful activists? How do we start? Well just talk to people about it right? Turn to the men in your life and be like, how are you feeling about Roe v. Wade? Like, you know, and I keep seeing all these like election polls. And it's like, all like women who are voting How is Roe v Wade impacting you women? You know, like, even in the media framing, the questions about it are not directed at men, it's only directed to women as if it only impacts us. Oh, to ask the dudes in your life. How are you feeling about it? And what are you doing?
Danielle McCombs 21:40
Yeah, and it's having that conversation, which is so easy to just turn away from like, this is gonna be awkward. And just not not saying that. Right. And so Christie I give you like, being able to have that conversation with somebody like and say those things, is really it's like, needs to be sad. And it's courageous to do that. Because you very easily could have just been like, Well, okay, you don't get it. Right. And I think I will say that, honestly, our first conversation with you, Kate has made me have much more courageous conversations around race. And we've had them on this podcast, we've had a lot of them where we're like, to show up and say, like, we want to learn, and we want to know what to do. And we want to be able to, like, have the awkward conversation and say, you know, I don't know what to do in this situation. Or I tell me, what you tell me your experience and learn from that is just really, I don't know that that has been changed, has changed me can be so
Kristy Olinger 22:41
I'm having this thought back to the idea of giving a shit and doing something about it. Right. And I know that that this topic obviously had a personal impact to me. I think when George Floyd died, I finally someone in my life broke through who was black and brought this up and said, Hey, like, this is this really effed up stuff happens all the time. And that broke through? Like, how do you get more people to give a shit when it doesn't impact them? Right. Like, I was talking to someone the other day, and they were talking about loan forgiveness for, for education loans. And the mentality was, well, I don't really have a dog in that fight. Like, I don't have a loan. I don't have a student loan. And I don't know anybody who's impacted by this. So they don't care and like, and I know, but but I know, I'm the same way. Right? I cared the most when I had a personal connection to what was going on. Yeah, so so it's just an observation to say like, how can we help people have more personal connections to what's going on so that they do actually give a shit?
Kate Schatz 23:50
I mean, I That's a great question. You know, that. Yeah, it's kind of like the crux of a lot of this, right? Like, we're like we're ultimately a pretty ruthlessly, ruggedly individualistic society, right? We're not rooted in, like collective care, and collective experience and collective liberation yet. And so like, what's the overall thing? I don't know, but like, on a person to person level, you know, I think truly those conversations that you have with people, you're not going to break through to everybody. But again, like, I had a conversation with you two years ago, and it was a turning point for you and it has impacted conversations you have, right, the conversation that you have with that guy when you reframe abortion access for him. Maybe that has reframed that for him, like maybe he goes out and has conversations differently, right. Like, it's you know, it's like a it's like a really idealistic vision of like, I can have one conversation and it like will ripple out like a magical butterfly wing, right. But it is one thing we can do. And to some degree, it's kind of all we can do, right like we can't, you know, We can't do everything. But we can do something. So I think again, people, yeah, people are moved. This is also, I think, a coping mechanism for surviving in an incredibly overwhelming world where we're inundated with information all the time, right? We literally cannot get through the day. If we are gutted and reacting and responding to every terrible thing that happens. Every time you pick up your phone. You see, oh, wow, 70 people just died. Oh, wow, there was a school shooting. Oh, wow. Here's another terrible thing. Oh, someone in my family is sick. Oh, my kid has COVID. Like, it's so intense. And so to some degree, this is like, I do think this is like a 21st century coping strategy of people being like, I can't with that one. Unfortunately, it, it shuts us off to humanity and to the realities of people. And I do think you're correct, that often that personal connection is the way in. And I think that when people ask, like, how do I talk about, you know, race with my, you know, racist family member, coming from, like, having a personal story, having a personal connection, talking about how something actually impacts you, your family, someone you love can be, not always but can be an effective bridge. One of the downsides to that is that it often requires you to bear something intense, right? So I'm like, This required you to share a deeply personal and possibly really traumatic experience that you went through, just to get through to this person, it makes me think of when the Kavanaugh hearings were happening. And I feel like every woman I knew, was just like, Brutus, like, like ripping off her skin and like sharing every story of sexual assault and unwanted attention. And, and like, we're like pleading with the men in their lives to be like, Look at what's really happened to us. And then we're like, oh, you know, but, but like, again, the parallel to is the degree to which white people just do not believe the lived experience of people of color. And it's so often takes a black person being like, here is this horrible thing that happens to me and to people like me, please believe this experience that I'm having, and it's painful. And there must be a better way to get people to care. And until we get to that point, again, I do think that coming from that personal place is, you know, one important strategy.
Danielle McCombs 27:40
I just want to touch on what you said, of like, believing someone's lived experience, because I feel like it's so easy to just brush over that will like, oh, that's that's definitely not what they felt. No, no, you don't know what somebody feels. And that doesn't matter. So maybe you feel differently, you see it differently, whatever that person is feeling at that time is real. And that is so important. And I think that that's something that has changed my way too. Because like when somebody's like, well, I'm uncomfortable. Well, I'm not uncomfortable. But that doesn't mean you're not uncomfortable. Right? And so all of those things are really important of getting out of that individual place. And realizing like we are all different. Yeah, and we all experience things differently. Yeah. And so, like, I just, that has been a thing for me, that was like one of those switches that went off when I that concept really came into me. Right? And to be like, oh, yeah, that just because I saw it this way, the three of us were having a conversation now we're all gonna walk away with very different things, that even though we're having the same conversation,
Kate Schatz 28:46
and I think this, I think this shows up so much in the workplace, you know, and I, especially around, you know, around race and around gender and people, you know, in marginalized groups, you know, experiencing, you know, relentless micro aggressions, for lack of a better, you know, we know that they're not micro, and aggression is an aggression, no matter how big or small. Right, but like, again, so often people will be in a meeting and one person is like, you know, again, more fucking racism, and everybody's like, Oh, I'm sorry, it didn't feel it. Right. You know, what, I think one of the best ways that we can, I mean, this is about the empathy, right? Like, what we're talking about is, is building empathy, the empathy tool crib, as my kids Elementary School talks about it. And I think that ideally, parenting is one of the most impactful places where we can develop empathy. You know, and you see it with kids all the time. And I have to remind myself of it, you know, my kid will come home, my nine year old will come home, just in a rage about something so unjust that happened in the kickball game at recess, and he feels so hurt and slighted and this part of me wants to be like, Oh, my God, fine. It wasn't a big deal. I'm like, You know what? I'm gonna help manage him through this. But like, I'm not going to deny this feeling that he has or deny this experience, right? Like that's, that's really crappy. So if we can do that less to other people in the world, like that'll that'll be a big help.
Kristy Olinger 30:15
Yeah, I just had a realization a few months ago that I had been doing that to my child glossing over right when she comes, he has a bad experience and she comes back, I, you know, divert her to focus on the good things that happened versus acknowledging that you're fine,
Kate Schatz 30:28
you're fine, you're fine giving you exactly like the worst.
Kristy Olinger 30:31
So I learned something new every day about parenting. It's, it is one of the hardest jobs. Tell us about how you stay motivated?
Kate Schatz 30:41
Mm hmm. Well, I don't know that I always do. For one, and you mean motivated, like to get out of bed in the morning or two?
Kristy Olinger 30:50
I just mean, like, how daunting that how much change is needed? And how daunting? I think it feels like to me, I know, it's like, it feels hard to keep going out there and doing the thing. So how do you how do you stay motivated?
Kate Schatz 31:07
Well, it's like I said, I don't always feel motivated. I don't always feel super hopeful. And I don't always do. The same amount of I don't know, is put the same amount of effort. And I mean, that's just that's, that's real, you know, and I think that I'm pretty committed to being transparent and to also like, rejecting some kind of like, activist superhero myth, like I'm, I've got friends texting me right now about ballot measures, because they're like, oh, Kate will know, you'll know, what's up, Kate, what do I vote on this? And I'm like, I don't know. Actually, I don't, I'm so burned out on elections that I actually don't even know about that proposition. I don't know, Google it find a progressive voter guide. I don't know, like, so. That is to say that I have my moments. But I guess I stay motivated, ultimately, because I feel like I have to. And I want to, and I see this as a long game. I life is a long game change is a long game. And I know that to stay in it and stay motivated. You can't be in it and motivated every single day. But you have to have perspective. And and I think, and I also tried to, let's see, I think my other answer is that I do also really try to stay humble, in the sense of knowing that I am important, and I can make a difference. But I'm not everything. I'm one person and one moment of time and one particular generation dealing with the bullshit that generations before me have dealt with and generations to come will deal with. And I'm also not the only one, right, like, if I need to tap out for a while. There's a lot of other people doing great work, right. And this is not to say like bury your head in the sand and never do anything. But the maybe the twin to that feeling of knowing that there are other people doing it. That's also what keeps me motivated, because I know that there are people who are like doing so much more on a regular basis, like deeply committed to this work. And like, I want to support them and amplify them and give them my money. And attention. And, and they that that that keeps me motivated as well. Yeah, but it's, it's hard.
Kristy Olinger 33:33
I love that answer. That's a very, you know, I just, I love your answer. That's a very human answer. And it's very appreciated. Because I think getting into activism, like we said, like, not everybody feels like they can and so it's nice to know that you do what you can as you can, etc.
Kate Schatz 33:54
I like I just, I just get over myself. Like, I just kind of have to get over it. Like I think that's one of my you know, everybody just get over yourself and get out of your own way. Like it's not about you. That's the thing. Like, oh, I'm overwhelmed. Oh, I'm burnt out. Okay, fine. Like, I can just do that for a little bit. But like, I if I get stuck in my head about it like that is so stuff actually incredibly self absorbed. Like, you know, I will I can be in a funk, fine, the world is still going on. It's not like grinding to a halt, because like I'm in a bad mood for a week and like didn't do text banking. It's fine. Like, I need to get over myself. I'll get back in at some point.
Danielle McCombs 34:32
Yeah, the long game, right? It's not going to be once again, there's not gonna be a switch that changes then everything is going to be the way that we want it to be.
Kate Schatz 34:43
And I'd say that for people who just kind of especially, you know, when it comes to like racial justice, for folks who did kind of come to the conversation or have their breakthrough moment in the past two years, I think, you know, the feeling of like, I thought we did a lot and it's actually feels Like it's worse now. That is a that's a shitty feeling. And it's also like a decade used to it like, yeah, like hundreds of years like it's didn't, it did not just change in two years, because you showed up to like three marches in your town and put up a sign in your yard. Like, that's important. And I'm glad you did, but like, you know, yeah, it's long haul here.
Danielle McCombs 35:25
And so jump in where you can, but know that it's not like going to march isn't going to all of a sudden make every thing. Okay, magical.
Kristy Olinger 35:36
So then, what are sort of some of the signals that it's working? Because you gotta, you gotta have at least a little bit of hope, somewhere to keep your motivation? What are the signals?
Kate Schatz 35:48
While you guys are actually a signal, right? Like, look what you started this podcast talk with this conversation. You're like, oh, we had a conversation two years ago. And it actually changed the way that we do the stuff so that, like, for me, I'm like, Oh, see, the stuff that I do does matter. Like, every conversation I have isn't going to have that impact. But like, that's great. And here's the thing, I think we all we do live in a we live in a world where we love to have metrics, like we love deliverables. We love metrics, we love data, we love a spreadsheet, we want to plug everything into Excel and be like people, Bob added these things. And this happened, right? So for people who are really committed to like, super data driven, I think electoral politics are great for you. Because that's when you're like, I worked on this campaign and the person won, I did it right. Everything else, it's really hard to measure your impact. And sometimes you don't get to for a long time. Sometimes you do, sometimes you have the conversation. And it's transformative. And you break through and the person changes their mind. And everything is great, right? Or sometimes you work on a campaign, you fight for something, and it has an it has a deliverable, and it has an outcome. And it happens. That's fantastic. But But not everything is like that. I think one way that you measure success, and if it's working, is longevity, and CES and sustainability. So like we had, I'm going to use this as our example, because that's what we can work with, for our dataset here. But you guys, we had a conversation two years ago, you felt like it changed the way you think about this. And then it impacted the conversations you've continued to have on this podcast that you're doing. Right, like, so it's not just like, we had one conversation, it changed the way you think. And then you just like went back to doing everything normally, right? So I think a lot to about and I've talked to the organizations, when people are like, we have a dei group, like how do we know when we're done with it? Right? We're gonna have a trainings, and then we're gonna be done. Like, to me the success of like a dei effort in our organization is that it's still there in a year. And it's still there in two years, the point is not for it to go away, because you've achieved equity. Right, the point is actually to continue it and sustain the thought and the effort and the conversations. So I'd say that's, that's like, if you join an organization, like, you'll know that you're having an impact, because you're still in it in a year or two years.
Danielle McCombs 38:29
Well, I think that that is a great place to leave this off of knowing when you have an impact is because you keep doing the work. Yeah. So
Kate Schatz 38:40
and, and again, like, you know, you might also think of it, you just I know you want to end but I'm going to add one more thing like, like, I think about it like for like teaching that like so often. Like if you're a teacher and I have a background in education. So like, you're a teacher, you've got a classroom of kids, everything's chaotic, you don't know who you're impacting, and who you're really transforming. And then like, years later, a kid might come back and be like, Oh my God, you were my favorite teacher. And that class that I took from you changed my life, that you don't necessarily know you show up every day, because it's your job. It's the work that you do, hopefully you love it. And you do your best to teach and to do you know, to do your work you but again, you might not know the true impact that you're having until a few years down the line many years down the line, maybe you'll never even know. And that's you know, but you're still going to do it. So that's I think the other thing about about activism about showing that because you're not doing it because you need the immediate validation and feedback. You're doing it because you know it's important.
Kristy Olinger 39:49
Yeah, no, loser.
Danielle McCombs 39:51
Okay. Thank you so much, Kate.
Kate Schatz 39:55
You are welcome. I'm gonna go turn in my mail in ballot box.
Danielle McCombs 40:04
So Christie, what are your thoughts on our conversation with Kate,
Kristy Olinger 40:10
I always feel like I have to do a lot of digesting. So I'm sure I will have a lot more thoughts as time goes on. And I continue to think about it. But the piece that I was most interested in was around this idea of making these things somehow more personally connected to people so that they care more about them. And, and I fall into this camp as well, right. Like, the things that I've been most passionate about have been the things that either I have a personal connection to, or the people I know have a personal connection to. And it kind of it makes me a little bit sad that we are such an individualistic society, and that we don't necessarily try to care for the collective. It Like It, it kind of bums me out. But I, you know, it's good to just know that that exists. And to have a tool to use to combat it, so to speak, which is just to talk to people and share experiences, which as a podcast host is right up my alley. So it's nice to hear that one of the solutions is something that I would say, is a strength of ours.
Danielle McCombs 41:24
I agree. And I, I feel like I have two things that I wanted to say. One is like where she called me out on like, You're not safe anywhere. Which was really helpful for me, because I do think that I'm like, Well, I live in California, and everything's fine here. And everything is not fine here. And I do have this false sense of safety. And so, but also, I think for a long time, we all have this false sense of safety of like, well, Roe versus Wade is a thing. And now it's not. So I think it is really important to concentrate on that. And remember that that, yes, we need to fight as though we're losing all the time because it is happening, regardless of whether you feel safe or not. So I appreciate that. And we'll do some more reflecting on that. I think the other part is really like that we are having these conversations. And by us having these conversations and other people getting to listen to them. I feel like okay, right, like, so we have this conversation, and however many people are listening right now and can have takeaways from that as well. So I feel good about that, that like we're exponentially having these conversations in our private life, but also publicly, that gives, you know, people having a connection to someone, if it's near you that that can share our experiences. And if that can make a little bit bigger of a ripple effect, because it's going out to more people that feels good and makes me want to continue. You know what we said we were going to do two years ago, which is continue having this conversation.
Kristy Olinger 43:05
Yeah. And I know sometimes you and I will reflect and ask ourselves, are we doing enough? Do we have enough episodes that are bringing these hard topics forward? And so are you sort of her response around motivation? And at you know, activism, being about longevity was, like really comforting from that perspective, as well. Because I think we've been hard on ourselves at times wondering whether or not we're doing enough. And so I'm leaving this interview, feeling a little bit better about that. You know, and just glad to be having some longevity with it. Yeah.
Danielle McCombs 43:41
And I think that there's there's always more to do. And so we will, we will continue on this path. And I hope that this sparks other people to have those conversations as well.
Kristy Olinger 43:54
Right. If you liked this episode, one of the best compliments you can give us is to share it with a friend so forwarded via text or take a screenshot and share it on social media and be sure to tag us at the opposite of small talk.com. Thanks for listening.
Danielle McCombs 44:11
Stay curious and talk big